Discussion Board

Topic: I drift, therefore I am...

From: Roald Laurenson
Location: Imperial Beach
Date: 07/07/2010

Greg,

I liked something about what Gelerntner is saying here, and thought you might. Possibly this is what Jones is doing, some of the times when he doesn't want to talk about it ;). Well, I liked Jones....

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/gelernter10.1/gelernter10.1_index.html

Any relation to what certain ideologies and political tea-people are not doing which makes them so unobservant; well, must be purely coincidental, as the detective stories used to say.

Regards, as ever,
Clive

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: Greg Bear
Date: 07/20/2010

Interesting essay, thanks, Clive/Roald. Jones is currently attending Hal's thirteenth birthday party. Chips and soda, naturally...

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: Roald Laurenson
Location: Imperial Beach
Date: 07/20/2010

Laughing ;). I liked that...

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: aculturemind
Location:
Date: 07/29/2010

This is interesting:

***But when a person is dreaming, hallucinating  when he is inside a mind-made fantasy landscape  the thinker and his thought-stream are not separate. They are blended together. The thinker inhabits his thoughts. No computer will be able to think like a man unless it, too, can inhabit its thoughts; can disappear into its own mind.***


...which would seem to refute the logical assumption that a something cannot self-reference. No one has noticed this?


Here's something else:

***In fact, the human mind moves back and forth along a spectrum defined by ordinary logic at one end and "dream logic" at the other. "Dream logic" makes just as much sense as ordinary "day logic"; it simply follows different rules. But most philosophers and cognitive scientists see only day logic and ignore dream logic  which is like imagining the earth with a north pole but no south pole.***

Operative words: logic, different rules.

Only in SF is it at least implicit that all the cosmos may be logical - there being regions of different logic. One might say each person's conceptual sphere is a region - which then becomes a relatively easy matter of comparison - like any Venn diagram.


I don't necessarily agree with this part:

***We re-experience (or re-enter) memories when we dream. The memories we re-enter are sometimes distorted, or incomplete, or have other memories added to them...***

I never dream of past events. Even the places I dream 'in', while often within my home town, are not my home town *as it is*, was...or ever will be.

At great risk of sounding disparaging, I've not found anything in Edge that compares to much of what the authors in SF do all the time. I'll read their stuff instead.

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: Greg Bear
Date: 08/18/2010

Edge? As far as self-referencing goes, computer programs do that all the time. It's called, I believe, a loop? And it must be supplied with terminating restrictions, or the program vanishes into its own belly-button!

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: Roald Laurenson
Location: Imperial Beach
Date: 08/18/2010

Well, stories could be told, and have been elided here. But I always feel quite comfortable with your emergent approaches, Greg. The Minsky in them too feels right. I guess it's not only genetics where you may have good sight as to what may be workable in and across theories.

So often enjoying what you are doing with them, anyway, and liking to think this can be fertile where it matters.

Best,
Clive

Re: I drift, therefore I am...

From: aculturemind
Location:
Date: 09/20/2010

Greg, I meant that a 'set' cannot reference itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox

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